started max trial period

  • feels like i jumped from one world to the next. as people appear to generally suggest, i opened the first tutorial and began. so dry. i was hoping to do a few tutorials but only did the first (and not all that well either). drained my brain. will take shower and have lunch and approach again later. my goal isn't to write brave new programs, but simply to change a few things here/there to make some things fit a little better for me. as a sort of joke, i opened what i hoped would be an interesting sample sketch from a part of strettas grainstorm. the arc router i think. it knocked me on my ass. hahahahaha. this is going to be a serious undertaking i fear.

  • Make something simple first and use the help files. The tutorials are great but I found just searching for info on what I wanted to do and then working at it until I made it happen more rewarding. Also if you are trying to do monome specific edits you should definitely make some threads here as I am sure it will help others.

  • yeah i may try making and not tutorials. i just don't know wtf is going on with it. lots of icons but i understand patch/flow/connections and that type of thing easily enough so i probably am not as far away as i feel. certainly not trying to reinvent the wheel. but also certainly not a programmer.

  • Please post here because I think we have common goals and it will push me as well. I am good at troubleshooting but its nice to have a push. And if I can't figure it out I am sure a more seasoned veteran will be able to help us both.

  • I feel ya dude. I'll post a few things that helped me approach max because I think I was coming from a similar space...

    - Modify an existing patch. Take a problem you want to solve or a relatively simple "feature" you'd like to see added to a patch you like. This way you will have a specific area of the patch you can zero in on and thus it will be more approachable. Plus, you'll have the motivation of that "thing" you want to accomplish opposed to the overwhelming prospect of "learning max"

    Along the same lines, another good exercise might be finding an older patch that hasn't been ported over to the newest serialosc yet. This will help you get some knowledge about what messages the current patch is sending around and you'll quickly discover what you have to modify to get things to start.

    With both of these, you'll inevitably run into max objects -- and to get in idea of what they are actually doing you can look up via max help (right click Open "whatever object" Help)

    ------
    On the topic of the max tutorials people always seems to direct new people to...

    Yes they are dry. Impossibly dry. While I'm not discounting in any way the importance of the information contained within those tutorials, I will say the for me personally I need to be in a very specific mode/mood to ingest information this way.

    I've actually learned quite a good deal from seeking out videos online:

    Sam (dude837) has a ton of amazing tutorials. These don't really focus on the basic building block objects of max, but still plenty of leaning and inspiration to be had.

    http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD45EDA6F67827497

    https://www.google.com/search?q=max+msp+tutorial#q=max+msp+tutorial&tbm=vid

  • have you seen this:
    http://monome.org/docs/dev:max

    btw: raja did a great sampling with max tutorial.zip
    Depending on what's your final goal in max this could be of use.
    Unfortunately it seems not to be available online anymore.
    The link from this discussion (http://cycling74.com/forums/topic/rajas-lil-sampling-tutorial-for-maxmsp/) isn't working anymore. Maybe ask him directly?

  • looking into all those links. bummer raja's ting ain't up no mo, no mo, no mo, no mo.

  • ah ok nice yes thank you be well awesome positive friendly

  • started th'msp tutez. felt like a jackass not being able to get a fucking vca to open in the second one.

  • the 30 trail isn't really enough and as you said - the tutorials can feel like hard work to get through at times. i ended up buying it because i got nowhere in the trial. the MSP tutorials are a lot more fun but be warned you're going to be dealing with dsp theory which can be difficult to understand on your own. as others have said - raja's sampling tutorial is excellent and is more in depth than a max tutorial, the c74 forum, wikipedia and google are your friends.

    the only tips i can give is always start small, the strength of max is it's modular, get one bit working properly then add the complexity piece by piece.

    godspeed

  • got the raja tute and can obviously tell it will help guide me somewhere!

    now raja, go make your lunch and clean your room!

  • wow, making big progress already. having fun just building by way of copying tutorials.

    ran into one confusion so far on the dev:max:mlr-tutorial up here though. it talks about a monomeserial app in the second 'button' section. i am pretty sure i should be using the serialosc patch right? if so, how should my patch differ from the tutorial? doesn't that patch load automatically/internally? i have been going pretty visually but i don't want to go down the wrong path and then wonder what the hell is going on as things won't work right. any guidance would be great. maybe the tutorial could/should be updated for clarity in the modern age of the monome? or maybe i am again being a jackass and am thinking too much or too little about inconsequential details that simply dissuade me from the path of patching success???

  • This has inspired me to finally start the MSP tutorials as well. It's crazy I realized last night that I've been almost purely ensconced in learning only the Max side for the past 2 years because all of the patches I've been focused on have been MIDI based so I'm mostly shuffling around messages.

    This MSP stuff is indeed the "fun" stuff now. :)

  • ah, sorry for being a jackass...i figured that was the case as it has been each time all along for the most part.

  • uh oh. trying to go between the mlr tutorial then onto serialosc tutorial just blew my mind. none of it making sense anymore and neighbor just decided to start power-washing AGAIN. the incorporation of the two tutorials is certainly better left up to someone more adept at all this than myself. i could almost feel the mlr happening, but then swept from my grasp by confusion and noisy neighbors. probably karmic payback for me often being a noisy neighbor. hopefully i sound better (and softer) than an air compressor/power-washer.

  • "hopefully i sound better (and softer) than an air compressor/power-washer."

    Depends on how long you've had your eurorack :)

  • does any body have the time or inclination tomorrow (or thereafter) to walk me through the gap between the mlr tute and the serialosc tute (or maybe a little more). i promise i have done at least some homework and have questions prepared. please message me if you feel like you could help!

  • the patch at the very bottom of this page might also be helpful in figuring out how to update a monomeserial app to use serialosc:

    http://monome.org/docs/tech:osc#updating_old_monomeserial_patches

  • Slightly off topic but if you decide to dive in I would be happy to sell you my Max 6 licence. (Max 4 Live is sufficient for my needs!)

  • ugh i am afraid i am unable to follow all the different directions that appear to be on the table for making a patch that works on a grid. i can see all these files and tutorials, and i am in fact sure it isn't super complicated but order of operations is lacking in my understanding. guess i need to start smaller again. not surprising. maybe i will find a yt vid that starts from scratch and includes making use of grid in maxpatch...

    large gap between music making and building things. i know this. i do enjoy both. doubting out loud the value of time spent navigating on the back end. only because i am unsure of the value of my ideas in terms of construction. am i likley to build anything that hasn't been thought of already, that would be of some deeper use to myself or the community?

    that is probably just frustration talking. always value in learning. off to youtube.

  • a muff wiggling dude appears in the wild. what sort of modifications are you working towards, aside from the learning process. perhaps more specific ideas could be suggested if you have something specific in mind?

  • the modifications i am working towards were adding arc2 support/control rather than arc4 native to electric dharma wheels, and also thinking of grid implementation for the 'sequencer'.

    beyond that i am pretty obsessed with pattern memory, kind of in a knob recorder sense. i would like to have something like mesh but likely having a lot more control. similar to pattern recorders in mlr. loop length. but have loop on/off toggle and have a snap-to/quantize on/off in order for loops/nodes to be free running. i can see mesh as being so much more functional than it is currently.

    i also have ideas about sample slicing. but those have already been done, i think i just would like to have them on their own. for instance i really like the mlr version in sum but i find sum a little too big for doing a lot of what i seek currently. i do love sum though.

    i would love to be able to chop up whole songs and pattern record thereafter. bigwing seems capable but not ready for current serialosc yet.

    but back to my issues, i just can't navigate/complete the mlr tutorial given the need to go through two other slightly non-linear pacthes to get to end result. i should probably just stick with doing youtube tutorials as those were clearly the most effective in getting my brain going. i just got really optimistic about the mlr patch tute as i got 1/3 through and felt fairly onboard. but then as soon as grid support came up, i was lost. that led me to evaluate the whole thing and i just wonder if i would ever understand grid implementation particularly related to changing compatibilities, updates, new file types and/or technologies.

    etc etc. that leads me to wonder whether i should even bother with max. i really have no innate interest in it beyond dealing with arc/grid. and if those are beyond my reach (certainly for the time being, but maybe for the long haul) then i am best served by leaving the patch construction to those who know it and enjoy it.

  • dude don't know if this is useful but here's a simple 1 channel sample player which kind of explains the basics of key presses with serial osc

  • thank you sir! also just interacted with stretta who led me to beap. that may be insanely useful too? i dunno. i feel like further entry to max will involve a conscious decision and i am not sure if want to make that call. i should though...

  • beap is amazing and if you want to make audio effects it's good to look under the hood of a beap patch as they're really well commented. just be aware that inside of a beap patch the signals are scaled to be between -5 and +5 rather than the usual 0 to 1 range of digital audio because they follow the eurorack standard voltages.

  • wow, @jhindsight, that patch is already big upping my understanding. i just got the sample to go from the 8 native to the patch up to 16. is there an easy way to use the entire 128 for just the 1 sample????

    that inspires heavy breathing. like really heavy breathing... and ya'know, just pretty much slaps me across the face in terms of answering whether i should go for the license. it's like science in these patches. i fee like i am in grade school (more like kindergarten) classes and it is very inspiring. i have to remember to be patient with myself and take frequent breaks and approach with levity, not too serious.

  • here's one way to do it, i haven't sussed out how to get the led feedback to the whole grid (it's late) but the entire sample should be mapped to the buttons

  • i can get the grid to do 16 steps but i have messed something up while tinkering. the sample definitely cuts into 128 pieces but the leds only step through the first 16 of those pieces. somehow controlling the place via "mlr playing" is disabled. i figured out how to expand that 'grid' in the patch on the left side to 128 but i cannot figure how to map the sample touching/playing to all buttons and then have the desired led feedback as well.

    any thoughts/guidance?



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  • well now i was just going from @jhindsight's 2nd posted patch. just hoping first to get proper led feedback, but unsure how to proceed. he did much better than i (i broke mine (his)). i can tell i will have further ideas after that i think. sadly it will involve me likely asking up here or somewhere how to make it happen.

    rodrigo wrote:
    see if you can get it to play on just 2 rows first too, maybe use [split] and then [+ 8] to wrap the columns rows across

  • well i can easily tell what i will be searching towards. i need a very bastardized stripped version of mlr and a version of mesh as well (that may be a lot more difficult). that last sketch from @jhindsight is quite close to my ideals (aside from the lack of led feedback).

    i want the file not to play through but be held momentarily as long as a button is pushed and loop continuously while pressed. i think having the single file laid either over 128 or more likely 64 (to add mesh control potential).

    and ya'know actually as i think about this, i need to figure out how to just have it all load in one patch. using something like mesh but with only two columns. giving more space for the file cuts and a more appropriate amount of node memory?

    this is just me me wondering out loud the possibility. not meant as offense to the amazing apps and patches that exist!

  • is there a way to open mesh in max to see code? or just to see the backend?

  • Hi dude, not near a computer so can’t test this in max but to get the led feedback you’d have to do 2 things

    1) Use the object inspector to resize the matrixctrl so it’s 16 x 8 (the same as a 128) and make sure one cell per matrix is ticked.
    2) You then need to get the row number from the logic on the right of the patch (look at using the unpack object) and put the row number into the second inlet of the pack object above the matrixctrl.

    I think that should work or get you most of the way there

    If you break the looping logic you want down into simple steps you should be able to realise it using the existing logic and some additional steps

    - We know how to manipulate key presses from the monomer using zl.rot and the route objects.
    - When you press a button down we know how to get the start time (column number * slice size in ms) and end time (start time plus slice size) for the loop
    - If you look at the max reference for the groove object there’s a special message to specify an inner loop (from memory it’s something like ‘startloop x y’ where x is the start time and y is the end time of the loop.

    So if you put all that together
    - When you press a button down send a startloop message to groove with the start and end time in ms from the keypress (this could be achieved with a combination of pack and prepend objects)
    - When you lift off the button just send the start time of the slice in ms to cancel the looping message (you might have to check if that works or not)

    Was that useful or a bit confusing? Obviously there are loads of different ways to approach a problem in max this was just off the top of my head.

  • just got back off a work stretch. thank you so much! i am pretty pumped. i will dig into all this as soon as i can. i have gotten some pretty supreme inspiration from good old sandyb. i also went for the new max. installing now. i couldn't pass up 319 for the whole thing. 6.1.8 in effect. done and done.

  • i don't suppose there is some easier way to get to a greater understanding of the 700 some objects available in max (maybe that number is off but was what was quoted on the new max demo video on the site (did stretta do that?)). i just wonder, how could anybody know what all the objects are?

  • You really know a certain amount of them (~50 ?) and then you use the help file ("see also") to find objects that ressemble the ones you know.

  • Hardly anyone will know all 700, you'll find that there's a handful you'll use in every patch (pack, unpack, trigger etc) then the rest you just learn from the help files and other people's patches. Don't be put off buy the number of objects. Just start small and build your knowledge gradually

  • "Hardly anyone will know all 700"

    (i think it's more like 1010 objects ;D
    but it's true)

    for jitter, there was a jitter overview patch in your max examples folder here:
    max(5or6)/examples/jitter-examples/overview/jitter.overview.maxpat

    but in max6.1... nowadays, you could just open up the sidebar in any patcher(bottom right button on any patcher window).
    up top in the sidebar, choose 'explorer' tab.
    then just underneath the top tabs(within 'explorer') you'll see tabs 'All', 'UI', 'Max', 'MSP', etc.


  • @jhindsight, i have tried your explanation for how to get led feedback in the mlr 128 patch. completely flummoxed. i have been going through the help files trying to wrap my head around. not making a lot of sense.
    "2) You then need to get the row number from the logic on the right of the patch (look at using the unpack object) and put the row number into the second inlet of the pack object above the matrixctrl." that is the part i am trying to make work. how do i know which number from the logic, which port? i keep trying different connections but they aren't happening.

    could i persuade anyone to show a simple patch for led feedback?

  • hi dude - i'll have another look as when i though about it what i suggested would jump to the correct row but the led would just loop on that row and not increment to the next row.

    by the way just remembered that another good max resource are the 'delicious max' tutorials on youtube

  • @dude: said "could i persuade anyone to show a simple patch for led feedback?"

  • @emergencyofstate i cannot tell you how gratifying it was to have all that proper feedback!

    i have so much to learn it is almost unfathomable. it all seems like complete magic still. gorgeous magic.

  • for raja or anybody... can anybody figure out why the led feedback only allows row 2 movement and then hangs up on final column (for the rest of the slices)? the patch works in terms of audio by splitting x loaded file into 128 pretty pieces. then just walks through each equal portion until the end and loops back around.

  • @dude

    I don't currently have time to put into an actual workable solution (i'm at wotk) but I can tell you what's happening:

    Your messages going into matrixctrl are

    0 0 1 through 127 0 1

    The first number is the column, and the second number is the row. Therefore matrixcntrl keeps on counting past the final column into virtual no-man's land and all you see is the light stopping on 0 15 1, --- the 16th column of your device.

    If you change your matrixctrl to the be 128 columns long you'll probably see instantly what is happening.

    If I understand what you're trying to do you actually want the led's to "wrap" or
    proceed to the next row

    0, 0, 1 through 15, 0, 1 [row 1] samples 1-16
    0, 1, 1 though 15, 1, 1 [row 2] samples 17 - 32
    0, 2, 1 through 15, 2, 1 [row 3] samples 33 - 48
    etc....

  • that is 100% exactly what i am trying to do! how do you make it switch rows after the first is complete? and why is it stuck on the second row despite always being on row '0' constantly?